When Everything Starts to Feel Like It Doesn’t Fit (and what to do about it) | Ep 160
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Ever since I turned 35, my sense of self — who I know myself to be — has undergone a continuing, and in some ways quite rapid, evolution. Now, at 40, it only seems to be moving faster. Asking me bigger questions, pushing me to make bigger changes, and forcing me to stare more directly at all that no longer feels like a fit. From furniture to friendships — which can be scary AF, tbh.
When I came across Anne Benveniste's Substack, and found her writing about things like burning down her entire social life in her late 30s, or getting an MBA simply because she thought it would make her look good, I was hooked. Shortly after, I emailed her and asked if she'd come on the show.
If you're feeling stuck — in any facet of your life — today's episode will be a breath of fresh freaking air. You'll fall in love with Anne and want to follow along with everything she's doing, from her upcoming group course to her weekly tarot pulls and more. You'll walk away with wisdom, insight, and concrete next steps for wherever you feel stuck.
Private coaching spots are open.
Show Transcript:
So, Anne, you're one of those people who... Well, just today before we started recording, you were like, "Remember when we ran into each other on the subway?" Which, like, I've mentioned this on other podcasts. I'm like, anything that happened pre-2020, like I'm, I'm not really sure. Um, which I know other folks feel that way. But I, which is a platform I'm, I'm loving and I know you are too, um, came across your work kind of s- worlds intertwining, right, by way of Substack. You were posting content over there that had me sort of like, well, I just went down a rabbit hole of everything- ... you're writing about, because it was that good, and we're gonna get into that and talk about that. Um, but we actually originally met because we did the same coaching training program. I think you did it much more extensively, and I know you did it prior to me, but when did you start that program? I started... First of all, thank you so much for having me. It's so good to be here. Of course. Yeah. I'm excited for our chat. But yeah, I started that, my first of many, right, when you're a coach you do so many things. But yeah, that was my kind of gateway into coaching, and I started that in the, I think, like, the fall of 2017. Okay. All right. So not... For some reason I had it pegged as, like, years prior. That more so might have to do with me and kind of an idea of, like, oh, you just, you just did it so much later and everybody else was, was ahead kind of thing. Ah. Um, and then did you, did you do the, the... 'Cause I only did, like, the kind of three or four-month weekend-long seminar. But when you wrote about in one of your essays, like, the, um, the hotel ballroom- Oh, yeah ... or, or conference room that it was held in Midtown- Yeah ... which I was totally brought back to, and it's so drab but was, like, really fun 'cause I loved going there because of what we were- Yeah doing and talking about. Yeah, yeah. It was, um, yeah, in that essay I was talking about how I started to do this coaching, and even though it was in this really drab hotel room it still, like, lit me up, and that's how I, I knew I'd found something special. Or just to kind of, to, to demonstrate the difference of how it feels in your body when you do something that's truly aligned versus the thing that might re- look really sexy on the outside. Because the- I'd come off of, like, some, quote unquote, sexy roles in tech- Yeah ... with the free lunches and the free pan- all the, all the food and all the ping pong table, la- la- la- la. Yeah, yeah. And that felt terrible. Anyways, so yeah. Yeah. Well, that dovetails into, yeah, so you wrote a piece, and it was specifically around you had gone on to get an MBA, and you had such a beautiful way of wording this where, like, MBAs or certain graduate degrees, maybe graduate degrees in generals can serve as this kind of cloak. And it's not to throw them completely under the bus, because some people go and get an MBA or a graduate degree of some kind and it's really aligned with what they wanna do. But I think, and we were just discussing, I was... Before we started recording I was like, "How old are you?" You know, we're both 40, 140, like around that space. I can look to peers of mine as well and, and certainly, like, younger generations. And of course I'm, I'm sure this isn't completely novel but- That getting those degrees, yeah, can serve as that cloak of like, "Oh, I don't really know what I wanna do. I'm feeling kind of directionless, but I know that from the outside looking in, this will look good, this will be safe in some sense." Can you talk a little bit about, just for those listening who I'm gonna link to your Substack and all of that good stuff, can you talk about that experience for those listening? Sure, yeah. I mean, I- it really was the impetus for so much of the work that I do now. But, you know, I was raised in a family in a community where, you know, academics- Mm-hmm were, were paramount, and, you know, the corporate life was, you know, what people did. And I, you know, all of us go to school, and in that structure it feels good in a way because it's like, "Here's what I have to do, and I know how to progress to the next level because I just do the homework in this way even if I don't really like it." Um, and so I think there's a lot of prestige and a lot of, uh, in, like academics and in, in a corporate ladder as well. Like, both of these structures, they give us a way of navigating life that feels very reliable because we know exactly what the trajectory is. We can, like, see the path in front of us. So, you know, what I'm super interested in is moments of transition and, and moments of evolution, um, within ourselves. And, and I think these are very hard for people because what happens is we start to lose touch with our previous identity, but the new identity hasn't formed yet. Mm-hmm. And so for me, and, and this is very uncomfortable 'cause there's ambiguity, and then there's also this, you know, narrative in our culture that, you know, feeling lost isn't cool. I mean, I think that this is- Mm-hmm ... degrading a little bit with the new culture that's coming up, but, you know, that we have to know always where we're going. Um, so yeah, I turned 30, and I suddenly realized, you know, where I was, I had been working at a big ad agency in London, that that's not what I wanted to do anymore, but I didn't know what came next. And I, you know, I was like, "Oh my God, I c- I can't. I'm, I'm too old to feel lost," right? Like, oh my gosh, like- Mm-hmm ... 30, right? When you turn 30 you, like, think you're so old. Yeah. Um, and oh my God, I can't feel lost. And, and okay, well, I better do something quick. Like, I can't be lost for too long, so w- you know, I'll, I'll do an MBA, right? 'Cause that's what the people in my community and structure are do- are doing, um- And yeah, I mean, it acts as this socially sanctioned way of, of feeling lost. But really what you're doing there is you're reaching for an external structure to guide you instead of what you actually need to do in this moment. I know this is a big part of your work, but it's like tuning into yourself, right? And, and, and finding the compass in there. But I didn't do that. So I, uh, you know, I had to do this to learn that lesson. Well, you have to do that. Yeah, you have to- Yeah, yeah ... like not tune into it like several times and then kinda wreck yourself, at least in my experience. Oh, totally. Totally. Wreck yourself, I love that. Um, feel a lot of pain. Hmm. And then be like, "Hmm, okay." So yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I can expand. So yeah, I, I- No, I think that was great ... went and did the MBA and You know, I can, like, study hard and, like, get good grades, and that's kind of how I, I always moved through life. If I just work hard enough, I will be successful. That's how I succeeded in school. I often think that actually people who are kind of bad at school are better set up for life Mm. Because they... Or people who are good at school, sometimes they're, like, following the rules too much or, uh, or, like, attaching- Gotcha themself too strongly onto these structures because they're so... Like, that's what made them successful in the academic context. And, like, what makes you successful in academics does not make you successful, like, in the real world. In the real world, if you really wanna thrive, you have to learn how to tune into your unique frequency and follow that- Mm-hmm which is, you know, the work. But anyway, so I, yeah, I did the, I did the MBA and it, you know, I studied hard. I, I got accepted at this program, and then... But, well, the whole time I was there I hated it. Like, I didn't like the coursework, I didn't connect with my classmates, you know, who were really into the work and, and each other. Like, they all thought and cared about things, thought in ways that I don't think. Very quantitative, very strategic, very business-oriented brains. Yeah. And, and, you know, they were interested in topics that I wasn't interested in. So the whole year was just this really painful process of me, like, working, like, five times as hard as everyone else in my class just to meet the baseline and, you know, not really connecting with anyone. And, you know, it was supposed to be this in- it is an incredible program. I, I did this international program between France and Singapore and, you know, very cool. You travel all over, meet really interesting people. But I don't know, it just was super misaligned for me, and then that led me... So I, I got super disconnected from myself, and that led me down another career path into tech that was very disconnected to me as well. And the piece you read, I talk about how I had to get fired twice- Yeah ... from these tech startups, where I was trying to prove to myself that I could be this, like, kind of MBA consultant strategy. Yes. I can grow an early-stage tech startup because, you know, this was 2017, 2016. Yeah. Like, that's what I... That was, tech was still hot, and I was like, "Oh, this is what I need to do to be, quote unquote, 'successful.'" Mm-hmm. You know? And really what I've real- well, anyways, I can keep going and going, so you... Well, no, I wanna touch on a couple of things- Yeah ... here that are so good because, um, you know, when I read your piece specifically about the program, I'm, I'd actually... I know people have done the specific program at INSEAD that you did, and I had- Mm. You know, you're in France, and I have this visual of you and you're in this, like, beautiful chateau, right, that is the, the school itself and where you're studying, and yet here you are. And as you described, you're like, "I had to spend so much time doing the work and doing assignments," that your friends are off either adventuring or gallivanting or spending weekends in Paris and having this certain vision of a life. But there is this, this huge disconnect- Mm ... there. And, um- And I think that that's so true of, and we have to remind ourselves of this, especially with the visuals we're now fed. Because even I, in reading your literal words, and then I saw the picture of the proverbial campus that you were on, and I was like, "Oh, it looks so nice in there." Yeah, yeah. That, that picture is actually not the campus, it's just the way I live. Where you live. I literally- Okay, okay. Fair. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I lived in a chateau, but the campus is- But still, and- Yeah ... it was beautiful. It was... Yeah, it's insane. I'm not discounting that, just to be clear. Okay. But, um, yeah. No, it was insane. Yeah. I mean, it was... It... I literally lived in a chateau. Well, and then to go into tech, because when we were doing kind of the math on, like, when we met and when I went into my coaching program and when you did, I too was in tech. So, like, basically I got fired in, when was it? Uh, late 2015. Mm. I was working at Conde Nast, so I was working for Self Magazine. Um, and I got fired from that job because, I mean, leadership changed, and it's... A little bit it's, like, okay to get fired from, uh, publishing because I, I mean, it was funny, I got fired and then I was, like, two weeks later hired as a consultant for just a different magazine, so I just walked back into the same building. Um, but I was still, like, fired from that position, not qualified to be doing that position. And then I did freelance for a bit, but then I ultimately found myself back at... And it was an early-stage startup, and I was gonna be the third employee. And I remember going into that thinking, like, it wasn't the concept of the company that I loved, it was the fact that tech was sexy, I could get in on the ground floor, I had significant equity. Um, it's so funny. Like, it's like you mentioned ex-McKin- Like, it's like the founder was ex-McKinsey. Like, they had all these accolades. I was like, "I... Here. Like, here's the invitation. You can get on the train." And I remember that period of life, there were moments of it that were shiny and exciting. A family, um, a dear family friend, I came home one Christmas, like, just held my hands and was like, "Clara, everything you touch turns to gold." I remember her saying that, and I loved that she was saying that, but it was, like, such a lie. And, and then I completely burned out. Like, I ended up leaving. I kinda saw the writing on the wall as to, you know, the company growing and evolving and my position being eliminated. Um, but I had to leave, and I'm, I'm so curious, like, what... I mean, I've, I've read about your experience, but what comes up when I share those parallels? Yeah, I mean, I just think it's, it's very easy to look externally for what we think is the, quote-unquote, "right thing to do," or what will make us happy. I often call them success formulas. Mm. So we look out into our environment and we look at what are the formulas other people have used to achieve fulfillment and success, right? And then we say, "Okay. Well, if I do that, maybe I'll achieve that too." Yeah. Right? And, and, right, the answer is not outside. You know, no mat- like, the, that, that stuff might be shiny for a day, a week, a month, a year, but ultimately you're gonna find the friction and, you know, have to readjust when you reach a tipping point where, like, you know, you're in t- it takes a lot of energy. So one of my phrases I love is it takes less energy to be yourself. And like- I love that ... really what, like, when your frequency is misaligned, right? Mm. Internal and external are misaligned, it often leads to burnout, because you have to expend a lot of energy to adjust your frequency to fit the spaces that you're in that aren't right for you. So, like, for me or for you, like, you know, if you're working in an environment that doesn't fit how you naturally think, what you're naturally interested in, or the people or the structure of work that's right for you, you have to expend energy to fit in. Mm. And then that le- 'cause we have a finite source of energy, that leaves not a lot of energy to actually do the work. Mm-hmm. Right? And so your work product is less, or you have to, like, burn extra stuff for a long time, right? And that's how you burn out. So either your work product will never meet the baseline, or never meet what's really good or what they need, or you'll bur- eventually burn yourself out. And, you know, I found that time and time again in the MBA and the two tech jobs I worked in where I got made redundant from one and fired from the other. Like, I'd look around at my colleagues or my peers and, like, they were creating great work because they, they had so much more energy to create the work. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Where, like, my residual energy once I, like, got done the task or motivated myself to actually do the task was so small that, anyways, the work wasn't good. Yeah. No. It's, um, you know, as you were sharing all of that, like, I even think back to that season of my life, and I can definitely apply that to the nature of the work that I was doing. But also, and I didn't realize this until kind of years later, the environment I was living in. Now, I loved living in the city. I really do cherish those years, and yet I can also say now that there was a way in which- What I was looking to sustain there, what I... The, the, in way, in ways I was looking to, to last there weren't about, um, what I actually wanted. Mm. They were just to your point about those, like, success formulas. It was like, well, I was single and I was at that age, and, like, you didn't leave. Life just looked a certain way. And so, um, I mean, I can see that in my career and I can also see that in many other decisions I made, like- Yeah ... prior in my life. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's just a really... It's what we're tr- we're not trained. You know, my... I always think that we should be taught in kindergarten how to look inside and how to pro- actually process a feeling. You know, we're talk- we're taught how to name feelings, but we don't actually know how to tune into them, how to trust them, how to release them from our body, you know? And I, I'm sure, like, that's what y- I have to literally teach my clients. Like, "Okay, tune into the feeling." Mm-hmm. "Allow it to express itself. Push it to be as loud as possible. Everything you're feeling is a really..." People don't know that. I had to learn that, you know? And so yeah, anyways, I'm going down a tangent. But I don't think we're taught to look inside. You know, I would say it is an, is an intention because I know you have, and this isn't a piece of your work that I've read as extensively, but you talk about, and I say, like, why not, like, just go there? You talk about psychedelic experiences, hopefully I'm not- Mm like, misrepresenting, as being really transformative in- Mm ... your ability and capacity to, to feel. Can you... I think it's just helpful for, for kind of the timeline and all that. So when, when did that come in? Bring me through, like, when the tech jobs kinda fell apart and- Yeah ... and then when you had those experiences. Yeah. So, you know, the tech job fell apart and I started, uh, that was when I was like, "Okay," and you have to follow the thing that actually makes you excited inside, which was the coaching. Mm-hmm. And I discounted the coaching 'cause it, you know, again, I come from this very intellectual, academic background. Yeah. Same. And I was like, "Oh, God," like, "Nah." But I had to do it 'cause I'd literally been fired. The universe was like, "Not this way," you know? Yeah. Getting fired is the universe being like, "Go a different way." Yeah. So, so I did the coaching, and of course the coaching requires you to feel feelings, and that for me was, like, a whole new thing. I remembered going through the feeling training in, in the program we both did to- Yeah ... and that was, I was, like, crying all the time 'cause I had never accessed my feelings and there's just so much on. So, you know, I started to access my feelings. I started to become a coach and, you know, I did that for a couple years and whatever. I grew a lot personally. You know, the coaching forced me to grow a lot, which was great. And, um, then in 2021, I broke up with a man who was about to propose to me. Mm. And I got depressed because I, and I'd never really been depressed before, but I was 36 at the time and, um, yeah, so I just entered this period of depression. And- I was like, "What am I doing with my life? Why can't I figure this out?" And it was because I was, you know, not in my feelings. I was just in my head being, talking myself into these relationships that looked good on paper. Mm-hmm. And, you, you know, um, the drill. What are you talking about? Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, and yeah, I was look- around the time, a friend of mine actually who I met through the CTI training, a really good friend of mine, Adam, is, um... He's a psychonaut, which means he has deep experience with psychedelics, and he's been to every dimension, and, uh, the ego death and whatever. He's just done it all, and, and really understands the science behind psychedelics, and he was incorporating them into his own work as a coach. And he had really... He actually cured his own depression by using, um, DMT. Mm. Smoking DMT, which is the active ingredient in ayahuasca, but you can... Which in ayahuasca you ingest it, and then it's like this hours-long experience, where if you just smoke DMT, it's a big, it's a 15-minute catapult into another dimension. And he was like, "I wanna, like, practice. Can I practice on you, please?" And I, you know, I like an adventure, so I was like, "Sure. Why the hell not?" Um, so yeah. So I smoked DMT with Adam, and it was a really intense experience, um, because, um, the DMT hits you at 100 miles per hour, and so you have to release control and allow yourself p- to be transported to the other dimension immediately. And so for someone whose brain is very tightly controlled, um, it's a very uncomfortable process to let go, 'cause you have to let go super fast. Yeah. But I let go, and I went into this other... And that was, like, honestly that cha- l- just even letting go was insane. But I, you know, I got transported into this other place, and I talked to these blue beings who were like, "Have fun," and that was my main takeaway, "Go out into the world and have fun." And so when I came out of the experience, I was, like, firing on every cylinder, and, um, I decided to go down to Mexico for a month. I had some friends living down, um, in, like, Playa del Carmen area. And so I was down there, and A- Adam had given me some, like, just little, like, microdoses of different kinds of psychedelics. And so my whole system had, like... You know, if you have a very intense psychedelic experience, in the weeks following it, you're kinda, like, high in a way. Yeah. Where, like, your system has changed. So you know, I was vibrating at a different frequency. I was taking some m- uh, microdoses here and there, and then I had, um- basically a series of events where on New Year's Eve, I met a friend, a guy through friends down in Playa, and we ended up hooking up. And when I woke up in the morning, um, I realized that this person, this man was just not, just didn't make me feel safe and- Mm ... you know, wasn't really playing with a full deck of cards. It just, there was a, just a number of things that made me feel, like, incredibly uncomfortable. And, um, I got him to drive me home. It was just a very, one of the probably most irresponsible and scary things that I've, uh, done. So anyways, I get back to my apartment in Mexico after leaving this, like, very intense experience, which had been a very high high in the night 'cause- Yeah ... and then, then in the morning it was like this so very high high then a very low low. And I go back to my apartment in Mexico and he leaves, and I'm like, "I just need to process that." And I had been talking with my therapist at the time about, um, feeling- Mm ... and, like, learning how to feel and, and being more in touch with my feelings, and it was something I'd obviously been working on it with coaching, but it still wasn't, like, in my system and I, I hadn't really embodied it yet. So I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna do what my therapist says and I'm gonna sit on the sofa and I'm just gonna feel my feelings," because what I just went through was very intense. started to take, like, some deep breaths into my body, and as I started breathing in, all of a sudden, like, my whole body started buzzing with energy. Have you ever done holotropic breathwork? Mm-hmm, yes. Okay. And so you know that feeling you get. Yeah. So it was like that. I'd never done holotropic breathwork before, but my whole body started buzzing with energy, and I wasn't doing the holotropic breathing. I was just breathing deeply. Then my center of my forehead opens up like a portal. Mm. My, like, solar plexus opens up like a portal, and my hands are so alive with energy I feel like I'm holding two orbs of energy in my hand. This goes on for hours. I'm, like, sitting on the sofa, rocking back and forth with this insane physical experience happening in my body, and I could feel in that moment, when I started, like, thinking a little bit, like, more, I could feel the sensations in my body start to dissipate, and I didn't want them to 'cause it felt so good. Mm-hmm. And so it was just in this moment that I understood what it actually meant to feel a feeling, and the difference between thinking and feeling. I just felt it and understood it in my body. Mm. So, and I'm... Like, the psychedelics for me were, like, the impetus. They, like, must have changed something in my chemistry that- Yeah to, like, almost even allow me to have access to this sensation. Um, and yeah, after I got out of that, like, my whole... I had people coming up to me on the street, random people, being like, "Your aura is a rainbow," and, like, "You are the sun." Like, it's so... Anyways, whatever. So that, from that moment on, and that was, you know, January of 2022, so much of my work has just been teaching people how to feel. Mm. And because I ha- you know, based on how I learned how to feel. Do you, and this is just purely out of curiosity because I haven't, um... The closest I became to doing psych- I came to doing psychedelics was, gosh, I'd have to look at the calendar here. It was when I was trying to get pregnant. Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And it was like, "Well, if I'm not pregnant in the next month, then I'm gonna go and do this retreat locally," and then I was, and then I was pregnant. Has it been, in terms of, like, the microdosing, an ongoing thing for you? Or was it this initial experience that kind of cracked things open, and you were able to access... It's like the path to getting to those emotions and feeling this way, or, or has it required- sustaining things by way of like- Oh, yeah, no. Th- which that was like that, there's like the me before that moment and the me after, and I don't take s- I don't microdose. I actually find for me microdosing is like, I don't think I can do it on a regular basis. Like, it's kind of fun to like do a microdose and go to the museum or something, but- Yep. Yeah ... you know, I, I don't do microdosing regularly. For me it was just this one experience that changed my life, and, you know, subsequently my relationship with psychedelics is I try and use them once a year at least, once or twice a year- Mm-hmm to just clear out the system, look for... I, I use them a lot as creative ideation, a lot of my like direction for my business and what I'm doing, sometimes I access that in- Mm ... psychedelic journeys. But yeah, I mean, they're an amazing tool, but, you know, there's so many tools, and it's just about picking the ones that are right for you. I, we started on the, the jag of work and your career- Mm-hmm ... and, and the cloak that both certain jobs and then the master's degree that you pursued or the graduate degree that you pursued, where, where that was stemming from. But the other thing that drew me, and I, I think they're intertwined in some way. Let's like see how this unfolds. The other thing that really drew me to what you were writing about was the evolution of your social life. You- Mm-hmm ... you talk about this process over the last few years of burning your initial social life to the ground. And I, so I turn 40 in the fall. Um, lot of change over the last few years in terms of getting married, having a kid, moving. But rife within all that, and I feel like the, the start of this... I mean, of course the start of this was before 35, but it really to me like ticked off at 35, and then as if it's been like a ball rolling down a hill, it's just gain momentum, gain momentum. And the thing that has gained so much momentum is the, like, reckoning with self, and there was a version of me at 35 that was like, "Oh, well, these are the ways that I've been performing," and that was true, but it's like that was a fraction of what I'm ceiling now. It's like, or seeing now. I'm, I'm think, I'm thinking of the word ceiling. Like, I feel like the ceiling has blown off in terms of what's actually there, and I've, I've been a lot quieter in myself and less social in the last few years, partially because I spent most of last year at home nursing a baby, but the other part of it being like, "The fuck am I actually?" Mm. And how does that then align with the connections that I have? And I- Some relationships have fallen away, um, some more naturally than others, but I feel like I'm in the birth canal of this. Mm-hmm. And there was something so, um, freeing, so refreshing about this language you used of, like you facing that feeling about your relationships, and I, I wanna have you talk more about it because I'm not doing it fully justice, and I wanna hear- That's okay it in your own words for the listeners, but then also releasing a lot there. And before we go into, like the what you did there to, to build back up a community, can, can you talk about what, what brought you there? Yeah, I mean, look, I think one of the things that has served me and allowed me to create a career and a life that I'm really proud of is how intentional I am at, at looking at my life and being like, "What's working for me and what's not working for me?" And I think- Yeah ... um, you know, one of... The line I'm now using for my business is become the artist of your life. Mm. And I think, you know, an artist is very intentional with their art, right? And if you, you know, an artist wouldn't put out a, like a painter wouldn't put out a painting when they hadn't considered parts of it. So for me, you know, I just- You know, my, I, well, I say that, but really, like, I, my life was, I don't know, it just wasn't humming socially, and I think there'd been a lot of years where I'd kind of put up with that- Yeah because I had this perspective that, you know, which I talk about in the article. But I had lived abroad for many years and, and I, when I moved back to the US, it was a very hard adjustment to come back into a culture that you have grown so significantly outside of, right? Yeah. And so who am I as I come back into this new culture? And yeah, so I had this whole perspective that kind of Americans sucked, and New York wasn't as good as London, where I had lived. And, um, you know, that perspective really colored the way I saw my social life, I saw myself and my life, and it, it really prevented me from creating new friends and community in New York because I was, I was only friends with, like, my friends from London, like English people in New York. Mm-hmm. I wasn't... And uh, yeah, it just wasn't clicking. And so it really stemmed off of that. So I had that psychedelic experience, I then went to Mexico, I learned how to feel, and then coming off of that, because the blue beings that I met in my DMT journey had said, "Have fun," I was kind of on this mission to, you know, remake my life. I felt this draw to, okay, I'm actually gonna do this. I'm not gonna settle for this being shit- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... and, like, not what I want it to do. And you know, just taking that ownership, taking 100% responsibility for my life looking and feeling the way I wanted it to. But I had to kind of change my mind to get there. Did I answer the question? You did, yeah. I mean, I think the piece around, like, being willing to really look at it. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Like, I see the pairing too of, like, y- you were l- your, your social life was, like, just kind of what it was, your connections what... And, and there's a, a dull hum to that, right? That it's like the, the, the world that we know. It's what's familiar, right? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And it takes- Not just time and energy, but like a reckoning with, to sit with, "I actually don't think this feels good. I think maybe I'm just kind of," I'm gonna use the word tolerating, but like that- that's what- what came to mind, and a very active choice then to say, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and, and change this." And I think it's a very like buzzy, zeitgeisty question for people to be like, "How do you make friends in adulthood?" Or like, "How do I make community?" And what you articulate in the article is it's really, um, really paints a picture of how much effort it took on your part. I mean, you talk about like choosing activities that were fun for you and then actually committing to them, which you wrote were music, surfing, psychedelics, and sailing. But like you still had to get yourself out to sail. You still had to get yourself out on a, on a surfboard. You still... You know, you write, "I went to events that looked, that I thought looked cringe, like a dating event where you had to look into someone's eyes for two minutes. I said yes to parties where I didn't think anyone I knew going would be a long-term friend." Like, you didn't show up with the like, "Well, maybe I'll, you know, meet my next best friend here." And that's real- people can hear that, but it's really hard to actually do it. I think it's really impressive. Thank you so much. Yeah. Um, I don't know. I think like I, I just have this thing in me where I'm like- I, I don't want... I, like when I decide to do something, I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna figure this out." Mm-hmm. And so oftentimes it takes me like a few years of existing in a place where it's not good, but- Yeah ... it really just takes like, "Okay, I'm gonna figure this out." Like, right now I'm focused on like, how do I create, like, a strong community around my work? Mm. You know? I think I've existed in a place where I didn't have that, and I'm finally like, "Okay, I'm gonna figure this out." Mm. I, I, I've had that with so many things. The same thing with like, you know, you talk about dating and, right? It's like there's a difference between, like, kind of like going on dates half-heartedly and being like, "Okay, no. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, like, have fun with this," or like, "I'm gonna figure this out." I don't know what you're- Yeah, I mean, I think I'm gonna figure out what my, like, unique obstacle to this is. Like, what's, what's under the proverbial hood of the car? Which it... I mean, I love that you say it takes a year, 'cause it does, in g- in general for us to shift these things- Yeah in, in our lives. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, yeah, I, I just, I, I don't know, I just committed to it. And the thing is, like, you say it takes a lot of work, but like, oh, I was also having fun. Yeah. I was, like, enjoying meeting people. Like, yes, they weren't, like, my long-term friends or anything like that, but it was, like, better than not doing anything, right? It was, like, better than my previous reality. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, as you're talking about this, I know I'm, like, I'm jumping around a little bit in terms of what you wrote, but I'm thinking back to a point in that period when, you know, you had talked about, like, you kind of had, like, you know, a better perspective on London, like, having lived outside of the US for a while. It gives you a certain perspective on the US, and then New York in particular. You went to Portugal. You went to Lisbon. Mm-hmm. And you had this great time there. But can you talk about... Because I often work with people where, and I'm sure you do, too, in some sense, where it's like, well, if I lived there or if I was situated there or if my life looked this way, well, then everything would fall into place. Mm. Can you talk about that, like, Portugal and then back to New York experience? Yeah. So I, so I was like, okay, 'cause I was still in the head space of- Yeah, I maybe didn't tell this clearly as part of the interview. But, um, so I, you know, did the DMT. I then went to Mexico. I had that crazy somatic experience, and coming out of that, I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna have fun." And I was still in this head space of like, New York maybe isn't the one. Yeah, yeah. So I was like, I'm gonna go to Lisbon 'cause I, you know, I have an EU passport, and I have some friends that live there, and, you know, Europe is my happy place, and, you know, whatever. I'm gonna, you know, go there. And so I went there, and, you know, on the surface Lisbon is really sunny and really pretty and, you know, but just... The beaches are nice. The food is good. But I just didn't... I remember talking to my friend, actually Adam, the psychedelic guy, a good friend of mine. He's also a coach. And I just re- realized I was doing to Lisbon what I did with men, which was to, like, try and force this thing on myself, where, like, on paper I could be like, "Look at Lisbon, it's so pretty-" Uh-huh. Mm-hmm ... "and it's hot, and it has a beach, and like, you know, it has all of these, like, international people, and, like, my friends love it- Mm-hmm ... and so I should love it." And I just, like, realized in talking to him, 'cause I would, I had also been doing a lot of the work on myself and my own blocks, um, romantically, is, okay, I was doing to Lisbon the same thing, and I actually wasn't having a great time. Yeah. Like, on... And it's the same thing at the MBA. Like, oh, I could talk about I'm living in a chateau, and I'm traveling all around, and I'm w- but, like, I'm actually not having a good time. Yeah. Right? And kind of being honest about that dissonance within you. I think for me, I had grown up in a, like, just not paying attention to how I actually felt- Mm-hmm because I had been taught to dis- trust my feelings and to detach from them to, to be able to s- to manage my upbringing. But, like, yeah, so that was, like, that's, like, the big growth for me is just honoring that feeling. And so, you know, it was like, "I'm actually not having a good time." And it was in that moment that I was like, "Anne, pull your shit together." First of all, I had just moved into this insane apartment in this, like, a unicorn apartment. Mm-hmm. Huge m- like, really nice garden, priced well below market rate. And I was like, "Anne, you have this insane apartment that, like, doesn't exist in New York City," and it's, like, New York City. Like, let's objectively look at it. Like, together. You know, I was like, "Oh, New York's not cool." Like, what the fuck? Like, surely you can meet people you like. And you know, people sometimes say this, "Oh, there's no good men." I'm like, "N- no." Like, I just, like... Y- you just have to believe that you're going to, like, find your people and that those, the people you are looking for are looking for you romantically or socially or professionally, whatever it is. Um, and so yeah, I just changed my mind. And when I changed my mind, I was able to, like, create this whole process of choosing these activities and going out and doing them. And, and, like, it was just, like, this conviction that I s- like, had inside me like, "No, Anne, surely, like, you can figure this out." Mm-hmm. And like, there must be those people, and like, just go have fun. I think that's the thing. If you're not having fun, then, like, the work feels like work. But if you can make it playful- Mm, mm ... and, like, have these experiments kind of as I was doing, then, you know, going to a party where it's, like, a little bit cringe and, like, whatever, it's still, like, a new experience. I think that's one of the things that helps me a lot is just my curiosity. Yeah. And my, like, you know, I like to meet people and, and I think curiosity is, is a really good motivator. I'm gonna use curiosity as a bridge to get into tarot. Hmm. But before we go there, I just, I just wanna double click on that, that phrase of, like, the dissonance within us. Mm. And what you, you know, were coming back to and recognizing and you understood, like, by way of, like, your conditioning, how you were, uh, largely conditioned to ignore that dissonance, dissonance, but how it was coming more online. And I also wanna note too, I think travel is, is wonderful and amazing, but also interesting in the sense that- I can see sometimes either travel or like, "I'm gonna move here for a period" used as a means to actually avoid whatever's at the root. Mm-hmm. And I think it's so powerful when you were like, "Oh, wait, I'm doing to Portugal or Lisbon whatever I do to men," vice versa. And, and there's probably some bigger metaphor there of like, I'm, I'm doing to a place what I do to men, and not actually connect to the experience of what's at hand, either back in New York or what I'm being asked to confront here. Um, it's just ... It's, it's very cool. I think, I think what you articulated there can be seen in what a lot of different people are either experiencing and in some ways avoiding. Um, there was something else that I wanted to... One thing I want to say before we hop over to tarot is like, and I know that you're a coach and you've done so much work on yourself, you were like, "Well, I was just able to change my mind." Oh, yeah. Sorry. Which I'm like, I know. It's so easy. Me too. Me too. I'll just change my mind. Um, and then I'll see where my dissonance is and I'll apply action. You know, easier said than done. I guess, what's your perspective on like how do you... This is a big question, so feel free to take this in whatever direction you want. But like- Mm-hmm ... how have you done that? How have you developed more capacity to change your mind or worked on that? Yeah. And I'll, I'll go first, 'cause I'll say for me- Okay ... I'm always looking for where am I getting in my own way? And usually it has something to do with my perspective, a belief that's limiting me in some way, and then my behavior is aligning with that. Mm-hmm. So I'll look at that thing and be like, "Ugh, you're playing into that." Like, "You're playing into that idea." And I won't necessarily work to change the belief. Like right now, I'm, I'm moving through a lot. I'll just give an example 'cause I feel like sometimes people hear this and they're like, "What the fuck are you talking about?" So I'm determining whether I wanna go like the traditional publishing route or, um, self-publishing a book. And even if I want it to be a book in general or really just like companion content to the coaching work that I do. And I'm noticing in certain ways how I've been like very observant of how you can have like a really big audience online, which I don't, but like you can have a really big audience online and then actually not be able to sell a lot of books because of the nature of the industry and what people actually buy, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And maybe there's merit to that, right? In terms of like informing the work that I wanna create. But maybe also there's a reason I'm really focused on just the numbers of it all, let's say. And, and that frame, that place of my mind is keeping me stuck or keeping me in a certain action. So I guess when it comes to like changing my own mind, I stay mindful and I, you know, I, I have to continue to catch up with myself on the ways in which I've kind- I've gotten myself lodged in a certain place, in a certain perspective, and then that's informing my reality. I don't, I don't know if that helps you or hurts you answering the question of your own experience. Yeah, I mean, for me, changing your mind is a very intentional practice, and I think there's a difference between knowing the power of your thoughts and actually doing the work to manage your mindset. Yeah. And I talk to my clients about it like going to the gym. Like, you can... Yeah, you might want to be hap- healthier. You might know you want to- Right ... have a better body, feel fitter in your body, but you actually have to go to the gym. And so with thought work, I, I'm either meditating and, and, by, or I'm journaling almost every day, and I'm looking at- Yes I mean, I'm, I'm trained on how to notice what are negative thought patterns. So when I see those on a piece of paper, like- Mm-hmm ... or I feel, if I'm feeling a lot of discomfort, then I have to, like, process, I feel through that discomfort to see actually, okay, I'm, I'm, I'm afraid or I'm upset. So I guess I'm very introspective, but you ha- if you're not already very introspective, then it's a, for me, it's about creating a practice or a structure to literally look at what are you saying to yourself. And I find that- Yeah ... writing things down, gotta get it out of your head onto a piece of paper, and then you can see very clearly, like, what your fears and insecurities are. And, and, you know, your thoughts create your feelings. Your feelings drive your actions. Your actions create your results. So, you know, got a lot of negative thoughts going on, then those are the ones that, you know, you gotta work on. Um, so gosh, I have so many practices to do that. Um, but yeah, the, the meditation, the journaling. Um, I do breathwork. I do, you know, connected to- like things I, you know, who I wanna be and, and what she thinks and feels. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I don't know if, does that answer your question? No, it's super helpful because I think that, I mean, yeah, I think, uh, the practices are helpful, but I also think people have a lot of practices at their fingertips, so to speak. And I, I love what you articulated around, like this is a really intentional thing. This is not a thing that I... You know, you didn't just like snap your fingers and change your mind o- over and over again, but it's a practice that you come back to and, and really, like your... and I'll speak for myself here, but like my relationship with myself, like the correlation between well this is the thing that I say that I want, or this is the thing that is causing me dissatisfaction in my life, like where, where is that coming from? Um, no, I just appreciate how you articulated so well, like h- it's involved. It's like- Yeah, yeah. Yeah ... it's totally, it's, it's totally an involved practice for you. Yeah. Um, okay. Let's just, I, I just wanna gab about tarot. How did, how did you get into tarot? Yeah. Okay. So I am, I'm super interested in moments of transition and change and, you know- Oh, yes and, and how uncomfortable that is and, and there... I don't know if you know the poet David Whyte. I do. Okay. So he- Not very well, but I do ... right. So he has a, a little video, and it circles around online a f- a fair amount, but where he says, "How do you know you're on your path? Because it disappears." Oh. Okay? And so when you're on your path- There will be no path, and this is kind of going back to these structures, right? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So most people, like, cannot handle that feeling. It's very uncomfortable to not have a path in front of you to understand what's gonna happen next and then after that and then after that. It's very uncomfortable. That's why people attach themself to academic institutions or corporate ladders or success formulas. Yes. So, but if you wanna live your life- Or marriage. Or sure. Yes. Sure, yeah. Yeah. And to, to use your, your world, or marriage or, like, a relationship, right? Right. So if you want to live a life that's really in tune with who you are and what you're here to do and that's really in flow and aligned and where you're doing the stuff that you really dream of, you h- the compass is not external, it's internal. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and to walk that foggy path, as David White says, there's no path. The only compass is your intuition, what feels sparkly and light and what doesn't. And of course, that's a work that needs to be done to u- you know- Yeah ... understand what your signals are in your body and, like, what's, like, you know, what's a trigger and a trauma versus what's your intuition, you know? That, that has to be a muscle that is developed. Mm-hmm. But that is the only compass, really, if you wanna really be pure with yourself and really create the life on your own terms. And- Can I just pause you there for a second? Because that language of what feels sparkly and light versus what doesn't is just so good. Yeah, that's, like, my big... That's the way I describe it. I- So when I, when I'm teaching intuition work with people, it's really about what feels light, what feels sparkly versus heavy, right? So, um, so, uh- What I have found... So in those moments, it's really about learning how to tune into your intuition. So really so much of my work is, like, helping people just strengthen the connection to the intuition, because once you have that connection- Yeah you always have a map. Mm. Okay? Even if your frequency changes and you evolve, you know, y- y- you always have the map. And, and, you know, that sense, and sometimes that sense is stronger, and sometimes that sense is weaker, but if you always follow the thing that feels marginally more light and sparkly in your body, you're always gonna be on your most aligned path. Mm. So anyways, bringing it to the tarot, the reason I'm obsessed with the tarot is because to me, the tarot communicates pictorially all the fundamental themes that help you stay true to yourself and navigate growth and change. Mm. And, um, you know, all the themes that I have been teaching as a coach, I started getting into tarot maybe two years ago, a year and a half ago. Um, God, what year is it? Yeah. Yeah. Fuck knows. Anyways, so and I was like, "Oh my God, this is so cool," because it's like, it's just like all... I, I basically have, like, mapped my entire work onto the tarot, and that's the way- Wow ... that I... So any of those videos that you see of me on my Substack, I do, like, a little tarot pull every week. The way I explain the cards is kind of like the way that I coach- Mm, mm ... if that makes sense. Mm, mm. So, um, and then tarot, so, like, just pictorially it, it teaches us all of this wisdom, and then when you draw a card, you know, I'm not using it to predict the future. I'm using it as a tool to strengthen your intuition, because- Mm what will... When you pull a card and you ask yourself a question, that card is going to prompt this, like, subconscious knowing. Mm. Like a, like an intuitive voice that is beneath the chatter of your everyday brain. And so for me, it's this incredible tool that helps in these, like, foggy moments of transition, it's gonna help keep you connected to yourself and strengthen that connection to yourself. So for me, tarot is like a tether- Mm ... in the midst of uncertainty. And yeah, so like all of my new work actually combines the tarot with my coaching and somatic practices. And, um, I'm kind of creating in the pr- I mean, I haven't really formally announced it, so hot take on your podcast. But, um- ... I'm, I'm creating a, an event series that kind of combines- tarot and the teachings of the tarot and the way that I frame the teachings with, like, somatic work and then community. Oh. So yeah, I'm super excited. And kind of like mu- music and kind of local brands and vendors, and it's gonna be like a whole little... Kind of almost like a, almost... 'Cause I'm very interested in, like, modern spirituality, and like- Uh-huh ... how can we develop a spiritual practice that really feels modern and, and relevant to today's world? And what I love about tarot is is it's devoid of dogma, of, you know, a, a figurehead, of, you know, any sort of problematic history. Yeah. But we can imbue, we can, we can inf- it... Symbols are very, very profound and evocative- Mm ... and we can incorporate a lot of, you know, really important narratives for how to live a good life onto these cards, and we can have a conversation about them and then, you know, do some sort of, you know, meditation, somatic work, which kind of almost acts as prayer. Mm. And then we can connect with community and, and kind of do some cool stuff. So yeah, I'm, I'm super excited for, for that. It's so interesting you h- hearing you speak about that, because I can see now this larger arc of like, I mean, you didn't mention exactly surfing and sailing, psychedelics, but I felt like the birth of this arm of your... Not even just arm of your business, but the nature of your work and the application of it as coming through, like, the burning down of the social life and the pursuit of, like, these other activities and experiences, and then probably the people that you met. And of course it's, it's your own business and it's your own work that you're doing on yourself, but then it's also giving credence, a guide to this experience, which it sounds like probably the whole act of bringing that together with different, like, brands and vendors and whatever the space looks like then touches on the social connection or community piece of things. Um- Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's really, um, it's... When I saw that on your Substack, I was like, "Oh, that's interesting." I wouldn't... And of course I haven't seen you in a really long time, and I was like, "Oh, I wouldn't have pegged Anne for being into tarot," but I'm like, oh, but this makes it a thousand times be- Like, there's something in here f- that, um, is, is just being p- played with. And like, when you talk about it, it genuinely feels fun. Like, I can feel the energy shift in the room. Like, you light up about it. But- I'm obsessed. And, and, and, and, and you know, it, what I like is that it doesn't really... It, like I've, I've actually lost, like, a bunch of, like, followers and subscribers- Yeah because of the tarot work, but I'm like, that's okay. Yeah, it's all right. And what I like about it is that it kind of is this like 90-degree right angle to, like, a lot of the work that I was doing before the pe- maybe not 90 degrees, but it, it doesn't feel Given my background and like it's not necessarily like a natural and I think that that's what makes it really interesting. I really like this. I wrote one of my pieces on the Substack is like about de-stigmatizing tarot and- Yeah ... you know, seeing it through a different lens. And, and that's the other, the other thing I'll say is like oftentimes our path It comes in a package that we, like, don't think is sexy or cool at the start, just like coaching, right? Or, you know- Oh, yeah. Oh, God, yeah ... so some of the, like, really important relationships I've had, you know, those guys at the start I was like, "Oh, I don't know. I'm not sure I would have, like, necessarily, like, swiped right on this person." But then, so yeah, it's... At, at first I was like, "God, I'm obsessed with this thing, but it's kind of cringe." And then I just leaned into that and was like, okay, well, maybe that's actually the interesting part is, like, the fact that it doesn't really make sense. And, like, that's... And I'm really, really... I could talk about that for another hour, which is, like, this idea of weaving in parts of ourself that don't really make sense. Mm. And, like, kind of u- using this, like, tapestry of, of, you know, parts- Yeah ... to make this individual. And you, you become so much more interesting that way, and it leads- Yeah ... to these really rich spaces if you allow yourself the space to explore these parts that maybe don't make sense. And then find a way to weave them all together. And, you know, that's also something I've experienced in coming back to the US, and kind of weaving who I was as a kid in the community I grew up with, which I kind of shunned, into the person that I have became abroad, and how do I weave in these things that feel so at odds with each other. Yeah. So anyways, yeah. It's something I'm really interested in. I, I wanna pl- so can we just play with this for a second? Yeah. Because that languaging of the parts of us that don't make sense- Mm-hmm ... I'll tell you what came to mind. I mean, I could, I could go down a whole rabbit hole of that. But- Yeah ... um, what's been interesting in having, I, my... The last house that I lived in, I bought it on my own and designed it on my own independent of my- I remember ... my husband and having a family. So, like, it was very much, like, on my own, and I was... It was beautiful, but a very certain aesthetic that when I look at it now, like the photos of the real estate listing, I'm like, it was beautiful and I loved it, and it was largely informed by, like, what was trendy or what was in- Mm kind of thing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so, um, in this latest move, while, you know, I love the house that we moved into, there were also elements to consider, like, in terms of, of space, and, like, where we were in our lives, and cost, and all those things. So, um, the house that we have is, like, a, it was built in the early 2000s, so the, the, the style goes l- I'm sure you can envision it, goes along with that. Mm-hmm. And, um, lately in terms of, like, thinking about the design and what we, what do we wanna do and what, how do we wanna redesign and paint things, et cetera, et cetera, we moved in late September, and then there was this kind of slow down period in the fall just by way of, like, the holidays. I turned 40. I kind of, um- took a step back and, and just made my schedule a little bit lighter. I ended up just watching a lot of, like, I'm gonna say old films, but, like, I have a preference for films that were shot... I wanna say my husband does, too, were shot in the '90s. Mm-hmm. Like, '90s films. And I had this moment where I was like, and I can tell you, it was, like, watching the, um, '94 rendition of, um, Miracle on 34th Street, where I was like, "Oh, I, I think I want, like, a '90s-style home." And I was like, "Oh, God. That's, like, kinda weird. That's kinda cringe." Like, y- you know. And then I was reflecting further literally as you said this on... I was like, "Oh, well, you know, my husband and I actually, like, really bond around a lot of, like, '90s music, '90s content, um, film, as I've talked about." I would say even an element of my cooking can be, like, a little bit '90s in a sense of, like, comfort food, but not as trendy. And, and so as we're having this conversation, I'm like, yeah, there's this kind of... A- and it's not to say I'm like I, I am a child of the '90s. It's not exactly what I'm speaking to, but, like, there is this part of me that, like, that feels a little bit we- It's, like, this weird bit. And yet the more that I pull at it and I play with it, the more I think, "Oh, well, I could, like, apply it over there or I could apply it over there." And i- there's an, an element of, like, it doesn't exactly make sense to me, but it feels really fun. Yeah. It feels really fun. It feels really playful. And so, you know, I, I thought for the hell of it and as we were recording, I was like, "I'm just gonna share this example." It's so random, and yet I hope... Well, I want your perspective on it in terms of, like, your practice and how you look at things, but I hope it jogs something for you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, so, you know, I- my Substack is called Character, and I wrote a piece actually on something called The Wisdom of a Great Airbnb, because for me, like- Character comes... I'm very interested in, like, how to developing your unique personal style or, like, that your style is reflective of your frequency. And, like, when you are- Mm-hmm ... when we, um, just follow what's trendy, it's again attaching ourself to an external structure. And, like, what I think is really interesting and rich... Like, so you could... Actually, let me p- back up for a second. You can go to, let's say, like, a really well-designed hotel, but if it is designed within an inch of its life to, like, a very specific style, sometimes it, like, lacks soul. Yes. Like, and, and where I think soul comes from is- Mm ... this mixing of styles and, um, you know, exploring all the parts of... So you can have, like, this '90s thing, but then you, like... I mean, again, I don't know your style, but then you combine it with something that doesn't totally fit at it. It's like what I'm talking about with the tarot, where I'm like- Yep, yep within the p- my personality, within my style. If you, like, come to my home, like, I combine lots of different cool things that I like. And for me, that makes it really rich and interesting. It's not just about being trendy. I think when things are too trendy, they don't have soul. And so where, like- And without that, then there's nothing for people to attach to. Like, to your point around- Yeah ... subscribers, it's like there are going to be people that are like, "This is no longer a fit for me." But then the people that it really is a fit for can hook in in a deeper way because of what you are then bringing to life by way of- Totally ... all these different facets and contrasts within yourself. And I, I think when you said the word texture, I just think of something sticking. Like, I think of, like, texture and grit. There's something to actually attach to. Totally. Absolutely. I mean, again, I, I wrote a piece where I, like, basically explored this within the context of an Airbnb. And like, yeah, when something's too trendy is not s- Oh it doesn't have soul. But- Oh ... what, what I was gonna s- say, go for it. Yeah. Sorry, not to cut you off, but it's like y- as you... I think we can all relate to, and, and candidly I felt this somewhat about, like, the prior house that I lived in, where it's like I live in the Hudson Valley, and there are very beautiful trendy homes where the exterior is in this kind of, like, matted black, and then there are big windows and whitewashed walls, and, like, all the fixtures are kind of the same. It's not that it's unattractive, and it's, it's not a judgment towards people's, whose houses look that way, but it, it lacks soul. Yes. That's exactly. Like, when something is designed within an inch of its life, like, by a profe- Some... There's a, there's an amazing interior designer named Beata Heuman. He- Heum... I don't forget. It's H-E-H-E-U-M-A-N-N. Anyways, she's based in London. She's Swedish. Check her out. I think you'll really like her style. But it just- Okay ... like, she really mixes things. It has a lot of character, a lot of personality. So, that's my whole thing. I love character, and I see that within ourself. There's a quote I like by the former editor-in-chief of Vogue, um, Diane Vreeland, that goes, um, you know, "A little bad taste is like a nice dash of paprika. It's hearty and healthy." And, like, we need it, and, and no taste is what I'm against. And I think about that, too, when I'm designing and decorating, and even within my own personality. Like- Mm ... from a decorating and design perspective, like- You know, I'm gonna have like s- I don't know, I have like a stuffed Energizer bunny, like that I won in a contest when I was 11. Like, you know, and it doesn't really make sense. It's kind of weird, but it like works 'cause it's like kind of bad taste. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Or like within my own personality, like oh, you know, being like, "Yeah, I'm like super into Taylor Swift," but I also like this like really, you know... A lot of my friends are like very amazing musicians, and so it would be like so embarrassing for them to like Taylor Swift. But like I like to kind of bring in these parts of myself that don't really make sense. Yeah. And that's kind of coming back to the tarot. That's kind of how, one of the reasons I think it's cool. Well, it's such a permission piece too. Yeah. Because it's like, and we're bringing a lot of conversation and explanation to it, but yeah, if there's, if there's something that like you're like, "I just like that, and it doesn't completely make sense, but like I'm really into it." Like the other person doesn't have to be into that thing. They're just attaching to the energy of the way you are giving yourself permission and then embodying that thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's probably has something to- I mean, I don't know. Like when I, I mean, when I, I read like, I spent like 30 seconds on your page, and I was like, "I gotta talk to her. Like I-" "... have to," right? So it's like I hadn't even completely read these essays, but it's like there was so much, maybe back to the frequency piece of things, like I was like, "Oh, like I'm m- like there's a magnet pulling me in." Mm-hmm. Um, it's really cool. It's really, really cool. Thank you. Thank you so much. And we could talk about this forever, and I'm gonna link to everything so people can access it. Yeah. Um, and you have, I just wanna make sure I have it here. I know you have a group- coaching program coming up called The Frequency for anyone who wants to find, and this is, this is such perfect conversation, their unique form of creativity and unlock their next chapter in work and life. Is that, um, is that timed at a particular point, Anne, or is it, like, ongoing, rolling? Well, I'm gonna announce it. It's gonna... It's, it's, like, a six to eight week program, um, where... And but I will run it multiple times throughout the year. I mean, if they're on the Substack, they'll get the announcement to that. But yeah, I just wanted to create something that was, like, in person- Mm-hmm ... you know, helping... I, I, we didn't talk about this, but for me, like, really to evolve and navigate through the ambiguity, it's really about tapping into your creativity. And the more you create and kind of play and have fun, you know, intuition is creative, right? And, um, owning your unique design and your unique character is creative, and, like, h- having playful experiments is, like, it's a basically a very creative way of living, as opposed to, like, attaching how you live to, like, a structure, right? And so this kind of idea of crea- That's how I think about creativity. Anyways, yeah, so I'm excited- Wow ... to, to run that. You have, even in this conversation, like, so many things about myself have made sense to me and questions that I had around the direction of my work. Like, I'm like, I, I've been, like, taking notes and hope- I'm like, "Hope it's not too loud" because it's been really, really helpful. So I'm so, um, I'm so glad that we got to do this, and I'm already like, "Okay, let's, let's hit the pause on recording and then schedule a catch-up call," 'cause I wanna know a lot more about your life. Um- Oh, my God. I'd love that ... so, um, thank you. Thank you so much for doing this. It was such a pleasure and privilege. Thank you for having me.
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